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+---- Thread: Wrongfully banned (/thread-1261.html)
Wrongfully banned - Sainted - 05-20-2019
I have been banned by a collective vote tonight, after being involved in a few incidents, none of which was of my own making. Before reviewing each of them, I must say that not the ban itself was annoying, but the fact that none of the people initiating the ban have actually watched the replays to support their claims.
Incident 1
Time: 4:14
Involving: Sainted, Big Bruch
Description: Coming down the back straight, I have pulled alongside Big Bruch going into the corner. I have positioned my car on the outermost part of the track. Big Bruch has come very close and touched me, which sent his car into a spin. His then proceded to claim I crashed him, but watching my wheel movement, anyone can see that I was holding it straight, not even attempting to touch him.
Outcome: Big Bruch has spun due to what I see as him incorrectly judging the distance between our cars, possibly some netcode interference. I shall not be held responsible for this incident.
Incident 2
Time: 3:13
Involved: Sainted, Pakonja
Description: Pakonja gets a run on me, pulling to the outside coming towards the corner. He almost clears me, with around 10% overlap remaining. The then turns into a corner a split second earlier, which caused me to clip his rear bumper and spin him. As seen from my wheel movement, the spin was not intentional from my side, and was purely a racing incident. Obviously, it could have been avoided by both of us, as Pakonja has probably failed to recognize he was not clear, and I have failed to turn in earlier.
Outcome: Pakonja has blamed the incident on me, as did Swiftzz. More on Swiftzz later. I do, however, understand Pakonja's reaction in the heat of the moment, however he should have taken a more measured approach and review the replay before making any bold claims.
Incident 3
Time: 0:32
Involved: Sainted, TheCaos
Description: Going into T1 I committed to late braking into the inside of T1. I saw TheCaos taking the wide line, and saw this as an opportunity for outbraking, albeit, quite an opportunistic one. However, due to the accident up front, TheCaos turned into the corner, where I already was. TheCaos has likely have not recognized me being there, and I was unable to stop or turn in sooner. My speed was totally fine, and I was not divebombing into a corner. This being said, I should have foreseen TheCaos not seeing me.
Outcome: a typical racing incident, where I should have been less opportunistic, and TheCaos should have taken care to look in his mirrors.
Incident 4
Time: 2:06
Involved: Sainted, MRC420, Mladenovic
Description: Coming into T1, MRC420 was avoiding contact with the car in front, which caused a half-spin for him. Avoiding MRC420, I was forced to slow down considerably, allowing Mladenovic to pull to my outside. Mladenovic then turns into the chicane a split second earlier than me, causing a slight contact. He is upset, thinking that I was trying to wreck him. The replay clearly shows that I was already turning into the chicane, but at a wider radius, proving Mladenovic' claims wrong. MRC420 makes more contact with an XRG in front, messing up their exits out of the chicane. With nowhere to go, I attempt to dive to the inside, but unable to avoid MRC420 crash into him. Mladenovic, clearly unable to see what was happening in front, gets collected in the melee.
Outcome: While I should have backed off to let MRC420 and an XRG in front kill themselves, I have pressed on, taking Mladenovic with me. Mladenovic, on the other hand, was unable to see beyond my car, and followed me through. None of the incidents above had anything to do with me, and despite being caught up in them, can not be blamed on me.
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The post, however, is not about these crashes, as we all are aware of the amount of wreckage happening at Demo servers. I am annoyed by Swiftzz and Mladenovic' behaviour, who made bold claims about my driving without referring to any evidence apart from "I have seen it from behind". Specifically regarding Incidents 2 & 4, I have repeatedly asked Swiftzz to view the replay before voting to ban me, which he ignored, relying on what he believed he had seen. Chat logs are surely available to admins, which will demonstrate Swiftzz unwillingness to review replays, instead of throwing threats of "calling Rane".
With this, I am expecting a fair review of the incidents above, my contribution to them, and should Swiftzz' claims of my intentionally crashing people be unjustified, an apology from him on this forum.
RE: Wrongfully banned - rane_nbg - 05-21-2019
Hi Sainted, thank you for this very detailed report.
Incident 1: not your fault, it's completely on Big Bruch, you left him enough space he pressed you too much to outside and eventually causing him to spin out. I agree with you 100% on this one.
Incident 2: can't open replay, link not available, please re-upload.
Incident 3: this was kind of adventuristic dive bombing from your side, but this can pass since there was a crash in front so you had an outbraking opportunity which you took. It was on TheChaos since he was not checking his mirrors for the inside. A bit of aggressive move from your side but it's racing. I agree with you 80% on this one.
Incident 4: oh boy what a mess, to me it looks like a chain reaction initiated by racer zxz in black XRG when he decided to wrongfully push his way through the chicane. then at chicane exit, MRC420 had not much space but he somehow went through alongside with zxz ending up with zxz's advantage. at this point, zxz was at far outside, then on his inside a little behind was MRC420, then you and a few cm behind you was Mladenovic. At this point, Mladenovic gained a little bit on you, but he could not see the 2 cars in front of you and thought that you will leave some space for him. having nowhere to go, you stayed on your line behind MRC420, when Mladenovic touched your rear end causing you to spin out. This was an unfortunate chain of a reaction involving 4 drivers, that pretty much no one can predict that far ahead. This could be avoided by zxz, but no problem, it's still close racing so no one to blame for this. Just a regular racing incident. I agree with you 100% on this one.
Conclusion: there was nothing wrong with your driving in incidents 1, 3 and 4 and you should not have been banned due to those. There still might be something on incident 2, but I need to see the replay first.
Swiftzz's reaction here judging by chat in the replays was not justified and I would like to hear his side of the story. It would be good if H. Baker can share his view on these since he was there as well.
RE: Wrongfully banned - Sainted - 05-21-2019
I have now re-uploaded Incident 2 replay. There was a mistake in copying the link.
Happy with you analisys of the other 3 incidents, thank you for taking your time.
Not sure if Swiftzz will bother to chime in, as he has demonstrated total ignorance to facts. H.Baker was more measured in his reactions: we have raced a lot with him, and despite my usual aggression, I hardly remember any contacts or even the slightest of incidents.
RE: Wrongfully banned - rane_nbg - 05-21-2019
Incident 2: this is kinda similar to incident 1, with a difference that you were in Big Bruch's place and both of you were taken out.
Pakonja had all rights to pass you since you made a mistake at the exit of S-turn. It is true that he didn't completely clear you, but there was like less than 10% of cars length of overlap between you giving him rights to take his desired line. The incident could've been very easily avoided if you had just lifted throttle a little. But again, this was all in the heat of the battle and your aggressive style. I understand why Pakonja was upset. On the other hand, if I were in Pakonja's place, I would've tried to use the remaining part of the track on the outside that was still unused, in order to avoid pressure from you. There is a relatively wide and safe curb. Thus, one could argue that the incident could've been avoided if Pakonja moved a little to the outside. To put some numbers, I'd say 68% your fault and 42% on Pakonja. This was a regular racing incident, no real intention to crash and definitely not worth a ban. A drive-through penalty or 30sec time penalty would suffice here.
Advice: you must gauge your opponents very carefully. You must be able to judge which racer you can race really hard and whom you need to leave a little bit more space and back off sometimes, wait for another opportunity. Simply, you must adjust your aggression to the opponent. You can not treat everyone equally and expect absolute professionalism from them. After all, you are at demo server and that kind of racing is possible occasionally and only with very good racers. This type of incidents will continue to happen to you if you are not flexible in that sense.
Conclusion: a bit more your fault then the opponent's, but no biggie, racing incident, not for a ban, a penalty would be ok. So yes, you were wrongfully banned indeed.
RE: Wrongfully banned - Sainted - 05-21-2019
I do agree fully on racing every opponent differently, and this exacly what I always endeavour to do. In that series of races I was losing my temper a bit being involved in a series of crashes not of my own making. I will not discuss certain commentary from Mladenovic, running the line of "I am a real-life racing driver, so I know better", as I do not have a saved replay of that.
Also, as I stated early, I would love to hear other people's opinions on this, and should they agree, an apology from Swiftzz should be forthcoming.
RE: Wrongfully banned - Swiftzz - 05-21-2019
Hello before he get unbaned, i will tell my story. So it wasnt for all these crashes since I explained to rane I didnt see the others so I'm gonna talk what i saw. First that i was spectacting u was incident 3 and the ramming from u. So first it had an accident there and u tried ur best to brake but since u are "experienced" driving how u were talking on the server u should use handbrake if it have that kind of situations. So u didnt use it, we still can pass it but u still pitted TheCaos and u didnt even say sry for it and I only saw that it was on purpose so u can get more spots and if anyone will say it wasnt then i think they dont even have experience on that. U were trying ur best to overtake everyone then failing and crashing. U putted a vote ban in 1sec to ban that guy beacuse u crashed him. Then u had the situation with Pakonja. U said watch replay and the wheel movement, u clearly can see that u was turning left on him so that was ur fault. U did hit me doing corner cut but I skiped it beacuse its racing even that u did ilegal move by cuting corner and actually hitting me. And the last one u was beeping someone that was actually fighting for his position and ramming him what if he would lost control? Did u think about that ruin someone race. Even that is demo racing u got banned for this stuff and ur attidute for admins and for players. Give the respect in racing give them their free space that they need or u just gonna crash again and again. And no u will not get a sorry from me at all. I spectaded u and saw everything and non can change my mind
Not to mention what u said after crashes that I saw right now even with ur fault u said stop crashing me.
RE: Wrongfully banned - Sainted - 05-22-2019
(05-21-2019, 08:49 PM)Swiftzz Wrote: Hello before he get unbaned, i will tell my story
You are late, the ban lasted for 12 hours.
(05-21-2019, 08:49 PM)Swiftzz Wrote: u should use handbrake if it have that kind of situations. So u didnt use it, we still can pass it but u still pitted TheCaos and u didnt even say sry for it and I only saw that it was on purpose so u can get more spots
As explained by me in my 1st post, and agreed by Rane, I did not crash TheCaos on purpose. I did not use the handbrake because this would not have changed anything - TheCaos has closed the door too late when I was almost alongside. Up to the last moment I thought he saw me, and spinning my car every time there is a car in front is not my style. Discussion closed on this incident, you are wrong.
(05-21-2019, 08:49 PM)Swiftzz Wrote: Then u had the situation with Pakonja. U said watch replay and the wheel movement, u clearly can see that u was turning left on him so that was ur fault.
What? Of course I was turning left, as I was trying to position the car for the corner. The contact, however (see the screenshot) was made when I was fully straight, as analyzed by Rane above.
(05-21-2019, 08:49 PM)Swiftzz Wrote: And the last one u was beeping someone that was actually fighting for his position and ramming him what if he would lost control?
I can only recommend to watch the replay again. I did not ram MRC420 on purpose, it was a racing incident - I went to where clear space was supposed to be, and MRC420 was sent the same way by his contact with the car in front. Had there be no contact between them, we would have raced 3-wide and safe. As I said, watch the replay again, as it will help you understand the cause and consequence better.
(05-21-2019, 08:49 PM)Swiftzz Wrote: Give the respect in racing give them their free space that they need or u just gonna crash again and again.
If by "giving space" you mean sitting calmly behind two people fighting for position - no, I never have and never will do that. This is not a cruise server, and racing means going for opportunities to overtake. In some situations, like the one above, there are things outside of your control, and in this instance, I was wiped out before I even joined their fight.
(05-21-2019, 08:49 PM)Swiftzz Wrote: I spectaded u and saw everything and non can change my mind
This pretty much sums things up. No screenshots, no replays, no analisys from unbiased admins will be taken into consideration by someone watching from an unclear angle. That is hardly a constructive approach.
(05-21-2019, 08:49 PM)Swiftzz Wrote: Not to mention what u said after crashes that I saw right now even with ur fault u said stop crashing me.
Yes, because Incidents 1 & 4 had nothing to do with my driving, and Incidents 2 & 3 can only partially be blamed on me. And even in those, these are racing incidents that happen with everybody.
RE: Wrongfully banned - AOR Nova - 05-24-2019
Can this be put aside? Sainted, I know you race well, please keep it clean and think through maneuvers before committting - even if these incidents wern't fully your fault.
Swiftz, please refrain from bringing potential personal conflict into a report, it seems you may have a grudge with him going by the tone and way you're evaluating the report. As an AS or AA member one must train yourself to be unbiased in situations, just like Rane has been. I hope to see better approaches to reports by you in the future.
This being said, do not stop commenting on reports or such. Varying inputs are actually beneficial.
If any incident involving Sainted and others, or the admins reoccur, feel free to post another report, from any side of the party.
Thanks
RE: Wrongfully banned - Sainted - 05-24-2019
(05-24-2019, 01:10 AM)AOR Nova Wrote: Can this be put aside? Sainted, I know you race well, please keep it clean and think through maneuvers before committting - even if these incidents wern't fully your fault.
Swiftz, please refrain from bringing potential personal conflict into a report, it seems you may have a grudge with him going by the tone and way you're evaluating the report. As an AS or AA member one must train yourself to be unbiased in situations, just like Rane has been. I hope to see better approaches to reports by you in the future.
This being said, do not stop commenting on reports or such. Varying inputs are actually beneficial.
If any incident involving Sainted and others, or the admins reoccur, feel free to post another report, from any side of the party.
Thanks
Sure, no problem. Matter resolved, from where I stand.
RE: Wrongfully banned - Vim Fuego - 05-28-2019
Just as a side note:
The handbrake is not an effective emergency brake (an American misnomer) - in fact on most cars, only the rear brakes are attached to the handbrake, leaving the front wheels completely free. You would therefore only be using half of your braking power.
Even in an emergency situation, locking the brakes is not desirable at all. In fact it decreases traction completely and makes you stop slower. Static friction between your tyres and the road is greater than kinetic (sliding) friction. In other words, you are able to exert more braking force while your tyres are not skidding. Not to mention the fact that it makes it impossible to effectively manoeuvre the vehicle to avoid obstacles.